Your first impression of Exodus was probably, “Oh, this looks like Mass Effect.” And narrative director Drew Karpyshyn, who was a narrative lead on BioWare’s legendary space opera RPG series, told me, “It’s a perfectly fine way to wrap your head around it.” He’d love for Exodus to be regarded in the same way, and it’s easy to see why. Exodus has all the pieces you’d want from a spiritual successor sci-fi RPG: tough decisions to make about the fate of humanity in space, punchy action combat, and the tangled web of character relationships you influence.
After playing Exodus myself, I talked with Karpyshyn about building out a new universe with developer Archetype Entertainment and many of the philosophies driving its RPG elements. How does the morality system work? How do you romance the characters you adore? And why should players care about the choices they make and how are they reflected in a story that needs to feel impactful? We dig into all that and more.
Parts of our discussion reference the demo I played, so be sure to read my Exodus hands-on preview for additional context about the story and gameplay elements we touch on, or you can watch the video version below.
IGN: The thing that jumps out to me and I’m most curious about is how you’re handling choice and consequence. In the demo, I saw the Paladin-Immortal alignment system, kind of reflective of the Paragon-Renegade in Mass Effect. I want to dig more into the morality system, how it works and how you’re thinking of choice and consequence in the context of that.
Drew Karpyshyn: Those are all related, for sure, but I’ll start with choice and consequence. Obviously, we think choice is very important in our RPG and we want it to matter. So, we want it to have an impact on the story; how decisions you make impact the direction the story goes. We want it to impact your companions, your relationships and how they feel about you, and the romances. And we want it to affect things in gameplay and have choices matter there.
We look at it as if there are three levels of choices. There’s the small moment to moment choices, like what do I say in a particular dialogue; maybe it’s something small that has characters saying something different, and you can get little funny moments. We have more mid-level choices, which are things like building affinity with a companion, maybe going down one of the morality paths, maybe doing something with a character who’s going to show up later. And then we have our sort of “gold-level” choices, which are like these big consequential moments in the story.
You got a glimpse of one of them at the end of the Khonsu mission [from the preview demo]. There was what we call the breakpoint. There’s a decision you make at the end about what to do with the Kay’s beacons. You have a couple of options, whether you side with Suliman [or leave the beacons alone]. And breakpoints are where Jun has these predictive abilities. Not so much prophetic, more like if you’ve read The Foundation [book series by Isaac Asimov] with hyper-accurate prediction models. This gives you insight on what direction decisions will go and what the potential consequences are. What you saw in the demo is pretty early in Jun’s development, so as you get further in the game, you can develop those abilities and get more information about what the long-term consequences of those choices will be. So, we want to have those choices affect the world you’re in, the future of your society, your companions, your friends, your choices in gameplay, and so on. To us, choice is incredibly important and that’s sort of our overall philosophy.
I’ll jump into the Paladin-Immortal side of things. That’s our morality spectrum. It’s a little bit different than simple good or evil. There are elements of that, but a huge part of our game revolves around Jun as a human who has certain genetic upgrades or anomalies that allow you to interact with Celestial technology, and you kind of bridge the gap between humans and Celestials. One of the key things here is: how do you want to grow and evolve? And the Paladin path is where Jun decides to hold onto their humanity, maybe rejecting some of the darker elements of the Celestials. And maybe you don’t want to mess with it because it could have dangerous consequences, it could change you in certain ways. The Immortal path is more for the sake of strength and power, and to survive, you embrace some of the darker elements of the Celestials. In general, Celestials are typically seen to be less empathetic, less compassionate, and a little more ruthless.
We kind of have you walking down these paths and often it’s tied into choices you make, and again, whether or not you embrace Celestial technology, Celestial upgrades, things like that. Or whether you want to try to hold onto your humanity even if it means you’re working at a bit of a disadvantage but don’t want to lose the core of what you are.
IGN: I’ve talked to folks like Leonard Boyarsky and Todd Howard about how they incorporate choice and consequence in their games and how they think of friction. When you make a choice and it locks you out of certain things or it might make something harder, you’re making huge games and want players to see everything, but at a certain point when you have a game like this, there are paths you have to take that give players a sense of meaningful agency. Are those things you consider, and how do you approach that?
Karpyshyn: I mean, that’s a very good point. The key to choices are consequences, and consequences have to have a cost. So, one of those costs is when you go down certain paths, you close off other paths. There’s going to be content in the game you will not see on one playthrough. That’s the way it is with the way the game is designed. We have a lot of optional content as well, but even within that optional content, there are choices that will lock or unlock certain things, change the way things play out, change relationships, change characters, change… future… missions…
Uh yeah, I gotta be careful, I can’t say too much, I don’t want to spoil too much! I mean, that’s a huge part of this game. We want to put pressure on the player. We want them to be a little bit conflicted. We want them to think, ‘Oh, I know I’m giving something up when I make this choice, but I’m also gaining something.’ So again,, I think that’s a huge part of choice in games, is that you have to have some cost and consequence.
IGN: How do you approach character relationships? You alluded to relationship dynamics between party members and I’m assuming other key characters. I want to dig into that a little bit more with how they work in Exodus and how you’ve thought about structuring them.
Karpyshyn: So, you’ll have a number of allies with you. Some of them are combat companions that come with you on missions, you can select them as party members. Others are very important characters who don’t come with you on missions, but serve other roles within the game. And each of those companions has their own hopes, dreams, desires, wants, goals, needs. They’re not always on the same page as you and often in conflict with you, but they’re often in conflict with each other as well. So, you have to sort of navigate who you want to make happy and who you’ll have to disappoint.
This ties in with romances as well. Again, we want to put you in positions where you can’t make everybody happy. You’re going to have to choose. Who do you side with, knowing that you will gain or lose affinity with one of these companions? It will change their relationship. You could be in a position where you really like a particular companion, but in a specific situation, you really disagree with what they want. So, as a player, which do you value more? Do you value the outcome of this decision or do you value the relationship with this companion? And you have to juggle it. That’s a decision you make as a player.
A huge part of that is making companions feel real, making their relationship with you grow, allowing it to sort of evolve from the choices you’ve made and realizing that the choices you make are going to bring some companions closer to you, but maybe push some companions farther away. And again, without spoiling too much, we definitely want to have it impact how their storylines go. And depending on choices you make, by the end of the game, you might not have every companion with you that you started with. That’s about all I can say!
Depending on choices you make, by the end of the game, you might not have every companion with you that you started with.
IGN: Something that’s always brewing in conversations is how games portray romance. You want them to feel organic, whereas some might see them as more like a mechanical aspect of a game. Between having something that feels natural and human-like or something that focuses on feeding into gameplay systems, how are you thinking about romance in particular when it comes to Exodus?
Karpyshyn: Of course, it’s a spectrum. But for us, we’re leaning more toward the romances being a sort of role-playing relationship thing as opposed to being tied directly to gameplay. First of all, the player drives the romances and they are not gender-locked. But there’s no situation where a character is going to romance you if you didn’t take the initiative. We want to put you in situations where you can potentially try to romance more than one character. Sometimes it’ll go well, sometimes it won’t depending on the character and depending on the choices you make. Like real life, it’s complicated, right? We want it to be complicated. We want players to get in situations where they’re struggling to get what they want out of a relationship.
We generally want that to be something that affects your relationship with that companion. Now with that companion, as I said, these things can affect what happens to them later in the game. But it’s not something where we’re tying it directly into gameplay, like romance giving you a boost to your skills or something like that. There are systems for that, but we keep them separate from each other.
IGN: So, you advance these through dialogue options, but also through choices you make throughout the story?
Karpyshyn: Yeah, it’s a combination of dialogue options and there’s a lot of side content for each companion that you can do optionally, or maybe cannot do. Of course, the more time you spend with the companion, the more that you have a chance to deepen that relationship. Or rather, emphasize that relationship; if you’re on bad terms with someone and you keep doing missions with them and keep making choices they hate, it’ll get worse, right? But you also have a chance to push it in another direction if you want and bounce back.
IGN: You can choose to play as a male or female Jun, but are there any specific differences? Maybe not in the main story or gameplay but in how certain dialogue is written or how the characters react to you. Does any of that change?
Karpyshyn: We really want players to feel like their choice of whether to play male or female is the choice that makes them happy. We didn’t focus a lot on trying to make the story be particularly different or unique based on that specific choice. We want you to feel like you can inhabit Jun, and then we’re telling a story that works regardless of which choice you make. So, there’s not a lot of differences in how characters react to you based on that. It’s more based on what choices you make in the moment, what choices you make relating to them or your interactions with them that will change how they react to you.
IGN: I’m curious about how time dilation plays into the story and how it works. You had mentioned it factoring into choices you make – is that tied to story progression or is it housed in specific decisions you make throughout?
Karpyshyn: In the universe of Exodus, time dilation is a huge thing. They have to deal with it, it’s something that fundamentally shapes how their societies and worlds are formed and built and how they interact with each other. Because going on an exodus, going on a journey to another system, is going to take years and years even though for you it will only seem like it’s maybe taking a few days because of time dilation, years are going to pass back home – maybe decades, maybe centuries. So, it’s a very big deal. It’s a major life event. It’s not something you do over and over and over again.
You have to make sure you’re properly prepared before you go. A lot of your focus is on making sure you have the right allies, the right team, and everything’s in place before you go on this exodus to make sure that when you come back, things will have gone in the direction you wanted. We talked a little bit about the traveler dynasties. These are the organizations you set up to make sure things stay on track while you’re gone; trusted people who hopefully deal with problems as they come up and push things in the direction you want.
So, when you go on an exodus in Exodus, when you go on these journeys, it’s a major narrative event. It’s a major life event. When you come back, there will have been major consequences that have happened. But we want to make it clear that these are things that you build up to and that you prepare for before going on these very important and dangerous exodus missions. When you come back, then you must deal with the consequences.
A lot of it is about what you do before and what you do after that impacts these narrative events. As I said, the exodus itself is a major life event, they aren’t something that you’re going on every week! Not every mission is an exodus mission – for example, Khonsu, the one you played just now is a space station orbiting your homeworld, so there’s no time dilation in that particular mission. But other missions when you go outside your system then come back, you will see the consequences of time dilation. Yes, it’s very deliberate and clear what you’re doing [in these scenarios].
The player drives the romances and they are not gender-locked.
IGN: The political structures are such a strong part of worldbuilding in a lot of sci-fi. Mass Effect with the Systems Alliance or Star Trek with the Federation and Klingon – all these worlds are held up by their political fiction. What can you share in terms of how Exodus incorporates that?
Karpyshyn: I don’t know if you’ve read the Peter Hamilton books, but every corner of the Exodus universe, every part of the cluster is going to have their own systems and they’ll develop very independently because, again, you’re separated by light years, by time and space. So on Lidon [the human homeworld] and in many of the human worlds, the traveler dynasties are a huge part of this political system because they are the ones who drive the progress of humanity by finding the technology and dealing with existential threats. And because they’re the ones making these sacrifices and taking these risks, they want to make sure there are structures in place to preserve what they’re fighting for when they get back. They don’t want to come back and find everything they cared about is gone. So, the traveler dynasties are a huge part of Exodus and a huge part of Lidon.
Jun’s father, Orion Aslan, was the leader of a very powerful traveler dynasty [the Aslan Dynasty] and went missing, and your half-sibling [Gideon Aslan, a major villain] basically takes over and you have to go into hiding. So, a large part of the game is about reclaiming this heritage, reclaiming control of your dynasty and then choosing how your dynasty is going to work, forming alliances with other dynasties like the Tenjin Dynasty, which Suliman belongs to. Khonsu is the first mission with him and it’s sort of like your first step in forging your alliances with his dynasty. Those political systems are important and they’re a key to helping shape and control the future of your homeworld of Lidon.
IGN: You have a game where you make choices and they have these grand statements about humanity. What do you want the player to come out of Exodus with in terms of messages or just things that they are going to stew on when they finish this game?
Karpyshyn: One of the things we’re thinking a lot about is underlying themes. We have many themes in Exodus and a big one for us is evolution, growth, and change. The Celestials evolved from humans, they became something very, very different. The awakened evolved from normal animals on Earth. How do those changes in growth and evolution differ?
Another key theme we like to explore is sacrifice. The travelers have to make these immense sacrifices. When you go on these missions to save your world, by the time you come back, the world may have moved on. Things may be very different. The thing you are actually trying to save might not even exist anymore. Knowing you’ll be gone for years or decades and leaving behind the people you love, the people you care about, leaving your home behind, it’s a huge cost and a huge sacrifice. And that’s something that we really want to explore. What sacrifices are you willing to make? What price are you willing to pay to get what you want? And then what happens when it doesn’t quite work out the way you want? How do you feel about that sacrifice? And even when you’re making it, knowing that it might not even work the way you want.
I’d say those for me are the two big themes we like to explore, and we just want players to get the sense when they play the game that we’ve given them a chance to explore these themes in a way they really enjoy. Maybe we’ve made them think about these things a little bit differently, put them into situations where they’ve really had to struggle with this internal conflict and put that burden on them. Sounds bad to put a burden on our players! But we do, we want to put the burden of choice on them and make them struggle.
IGN: That’s what makes these games compelling and memorable, right? Tough decisions. I really enjoy that part of these kinds of games… like in Mass Effect! I know you’re always getting those comparisons, but I’m interested in how you feel about those comparisons and how has that feeling changed as time has gone on?
Karpyshyn: Having worked on Mass Effect, people are making comparisons. The same thing happened when we were doing Mass Effect where people were making comparisons to Knights of the Old Republic, which I also worked on! You’re always going to get comparisons to things you’ve worked on before and the team has worked on before. And I actually don’t mind that because I feel like the core of what we do is not in the details of something rather it’s the spirit of what we’ve done. The spirit of the type of games that I love to make, the games I love to play, is something I try to capture with every game. We always want to put a fresh spin on it.
But I’ll be honest, if five years from now, people are putting us up in that same pantheon with those other projects I’ve worked on in the past, I would love that! I mean, that’s great! We look at Exodus and we have a lot of different inspirations. Same thing with other projects I’ve worked on. There are always dozens and dozens of inspirations, you take little bits and pieces, and you weave them together into something you hope is fresh and new. You try to put a spin on it that players haven’t had before, and you try to just give them something that they can understand at a core level that can evoke a lot of the emotions they’re hoping for, but then also give them something that surprises them, delights them, catches them off guard.
I think it’s a perfectly fine way for people to wrap their heads around things and I always love it when people say they love past things I’ve done. And I think people are going to really, really like what we’re doing for Exodus because we’ve just captured the spirit and energy of the of the games we’ve worked on in the past, and we’ve brought them in to our new project, and we’re very excited to let people finally finally experience it soon.
If five years from now, people are putting us up in that same pantheon with those other projects I’ve worked on in the past, I would love that!
IGN: Of course, you’ve worked on so many games and you’ve influenced the direction of RPGs; I remember being 12 years old thinking Knights of the Old Republic was the coolest thing in the world, and it still is to this day. Good RPGs age well. But in those decades since, how have you felt about the evolution and direction of RPGs as a whole? What speaks to you that you’ve seen other people work on? Do you think there’s something missing in the genre?
Karpyshyn: For me, the cool thing is seeing the evolution as technology gets better and seeing what developers do with that. And then also seeing developers just build on everything that came before. Obviously, there are a lot of amazing RPGs that have come out in the last few years. Baldur’s Gate 3 is amazing, Expedition 33 is amazing. There’s just a lot of amazing stuff going on in role-playing, narrative, and storytelling. The industry continues to mature, evolve, and advance, and for me, basically seeing everybody inspiring and pushing each other; you know, seeing somebody do something amazing pushes you and challenges you, too. You see how the bar’s been raised and that bar keeps getting raised. Seeing that slow evolution over my time in the industry is very exciting.
It’s always challenging and makes it harder to come up with the next evolution, but I think that’s what makes it fun, is you have to find new ways to challenge yourself to up the ante, to raise that bar one more time. I don’t know if I would say anything’s missing in the industry because new stuff keeps coming. I’m always interested to see whatever new RPG comes out, look at what they’ve done, what they’ve experimented with, and how I can then think about those things and incorporate them into the projects that I want to work on and that I care about.
